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PostPostano: 01 svi 2015 20:48 
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perokvrzica napisao:
Je, otkad je u penziji - mislim da mu je to glavna aktivnost!

Čovječe! S kakvim se ti tipovima družiš. :D

_________________
I thought love was only true in fairy tales,
Meant for someone else but not for me.
... ... ...
Then I saw her face! Now I'm a believer.
Not a trace of doubt in my mind.


Lol. Slika


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PostPostano: 01 svi 2015 21:16 
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Fran26 napisao:
perokvrzica napisao:
Je, otkad je u penziji - mislim da mu je to glavna aktivnost!

Čovječe! S kakvim se ti tipovima družiš. :D


Pa moram ti reći da je meni njegovo društvo više nametnuto nego što ga biram. :lol:
Ne da čovjek nije zanimljjiv, dapače, nego je problem u tome što faaaaakaaaat sporo govori. I kad onda on krene s tim svojim na glas promišljanjima i tezama - ode pola dana.

No pustimo mi to, jes ti meni našo odgovor?


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PostPostano: 01 svi 2015 21:59 
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Pa moram ti reći da je meni njegovo društvo više nametnuto nego što ga biram. :lol:
Ne da čovjek nije zanimljjiv, dapače, nego je problem u tome što faaaaakaaaat sporo govori. I kad onda on krene s tim svojim na glas promišljanjima i tezama - ode pola dana.

Zanimljiv tip, imaš ti veselja. Tvoj tata, ti i taj tip, ako se pojavi još onaj skromni, kojemu je sve po volji, imate tema za razgovor. :) Da znaš da sam danas vodio dubokoumne razgovore sa Šegijem. Uz neizostavne teme kao što su: "Sumrak bogova" i Milanka Opačić, pojavile su se teme o boksericama i tipovima kao što su Tomo Horvatinčić. Lol. :)

perokvrzica napisao:
No pustimo mi to, jes ti meni našo odgovor?

The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a mystery of Faith. (Sent. Certa.)


Dakle, nemojmo se zavaravati da o tome možemo znati sve. Ipak, možemo znati odgovor na tvoje pitanje. Već dogma Crkve i sveto pismo daju smjer ka odgovoru;



God is absolutely immutable. (De fide.)

Heb 13,8 Isus Krist jučer i danas isti je - i uvijeke.

Iv 8,58 Zaista, zaista, kažem vam: prije negoli Abraham posta, Ja jesam!





Znači, prije i poslije uskrsnuća nije u pitanju drugi Krist, nego drugačiji Krist. Toma kaže; "same nature, but differed in glory". To je to. Jedna rečenica.



As stated above (Article 2), Christ's body in the Resurrection was "of the same nature, but differed in glory." Accordingly, whatever goes with the nature of a human body, was entirely in the body of Christ when He rose again. Now it is clear that flesh, bones, blood, and other such things, are of the very nature of the human body. Consequently, all these things were in Christ's body when He rose again; and this also integrally, without any diminution; otherwise it would not have been a complete resurrection, if whatever was lost by death had not been restored. Hence our Lord assured His faithful ones by saying (Matthew 10:30): "The very hairs of your head are all numbered": and (Luke 21:18): "A hair of your head shall not perish." Sv. Toma Akvinski "Summa Theologica"


A članak 2 kaže;


Whether Christ's body rose glorified?

Objection 1. It seems that Christ's body did not rise glorified. For glorified bodies shine, according to Matthew 13:43: "Then shall the just shine as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." But shining bodies are seen under the aspect of light, but not of color. Therefore, since Christ's body was beheld under the aspect of color, as it had been hitherto, it seems that it was not a glorified one.

Objection 2. Further, a glorified body is incorruptible. But Christ's body seems not to have been incorruptible; because it was palpable, as He Himself says in Luke 24:39: "Handle, and see." Now Gregory says (Hom. in Evang. xxvi) that "what is handled must be corruptible, and that which is incorruptible cannot be handled." Consequently, Christ's body was not glorified.

Objection 3. Further, a glorified body is not animal, but spiritual, as is clear from 1 Corinthians 15. But after the Resurrection Christ's body seems to have been animal, since He ate and drank with His disciples, as we read in the closing chapters of Luke and John. Therefore, it seems that Christ's body was not glorified.

On the contrary, The Apostle says (Philippians 3:21): "He will reform the body of our lowness, made like to the body of His glory."

I answer that, Christ's was a glorified body in His Resurrection, and this is evident from three reasons. First of all, because His Resurrection was the exemplar and the cause of ours, as is stated in 1 Corinthians 15:43. But in the resurrection the saints will have glorified bodies, as is written in the same place: "It is sown in dishonor, it shall rise in glory." Hence, since the cause is mightier than the effect, and the exemplar than the exemplate; much more glorious, then, was the body of Christ in His Resurrection. Secondly, because He merited the glory of His Resurrection by the lowliness of His Passion. Hence He said (John 12:27): "Now is My soul troubled," which refers to the Passion; and later He adds: "Father, glorify Thy name," whereby He asks for the glory of the Resurrection. Thirdly, because as stated above (Question 34, Article 4), Christ's soul was glorified from the instant of His conception by perfect fruition of the Godhead. But, as stated above (14, 1, ad 2), it was owing to the Divine economy that the glory did not pass from His soul to His body, in order that by the Passion He might accomplish the mystery of our redemption. Consequently, when this mystery of Christ's Passion and death was finished, straightway the soul communicated its glory to the risen body in the Resurrection; and so that body was made glorious.

Reply to Objection 1. Whatever is received within a subject is received according to the subject's capacity. Therefore, since glory flows from the soul into the body, it follows that, as Augustine says (Ep. ad Dioscor. cxviii), the brightness or splendor of a glorified body is after the manner of natural color in the human body; just as variously colored glass derives its splendor from the sun's radiance, according to the mode of the color. But as it lies within the power of a glorified man whether his body be seen or not, as stated above (1, ad 2), so is it in his power whether its splendor be seen or not. Accordingly it can be seen in its color without its brightness. And it was in this way that Christ's body appeared to the disciples after the Resurrection.

Reply to Objection 2. We say that a body can be handled not only because of its resistance, but also on account of its density. But from rarity and density follow weight and lightness, heat and cold, and similar contraries, which are the principles of corruption in elementary bodies. Consequently, a body that can be handled by human touch is naturally corruptible. But if there be a body that resists touch, and yet is not disposed according to the qualities mentioned, which are the proper objects of human touch, such as a heavenly body, then such body cannot be said to be handled. But Christ's body after the Resurrection was truly made up of elements, and had tangible qualities such as the nature of a human body requires, and therefore it could naturally be handled; and if it had nothing beyond the nature of a human body, it would likewise be corruptible. But it had something else which made it incorruptible, and this was not the nature of a heavenly body, as some maintain, and into which we shall make fuller inquiry later (XP, 82, 1), but it was glory flowing from a beatified soul: because, as Augustine says (Ep. ad Dioscor. cxviii): "God made the soul of such powerful nature, that from its fullest beatitude the fulness of health overflows into the body, that is, the vigor of incorruption." And therefore Gregory says (Hom. in Evang. xxvi): "Christ's body is shown to be of the same nature, but of different glory, after the Resurrection."

Reply to Objection 3. As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xiii): "After the Resurrection, our Saviour in spiritual but true flesh partook of meat with the disciples, not from need of food, but because it lay in His power." For as Bede says on Luke 24:41: "The thirsty earth sucks in the water, and the sun's burning ray absorbs it; the former from need, the latter by its power." Hence after the Resurrection He ate, "not as needing food, but in order thus to show the nature of His risen body." Nor does it follow that His was an animal body that stands in need of food. Sv. Toma Akvinski "Summa Theologica"




Ili, Romano Guardini;



When we read the Gospels’ accounts of Easter and the weeks immediately following it attentively, we notice the dual character of the Christ portrayed. The difference between the risen Christ and Jesus before his death—indeed, between the risen Christ and all men—is carefully stressed. His presence is strange; his coming shocks, terrifies. Actually he no longer comes and goes, but “appears” and “vanishes” with disturbing suddenness. Corporal limitations no longer hamper him; the barriers of time and space have ceased to exist. He moves with a freedom impossible on earth. Yet the Evangelists stress equally the fact that this is the same Jesus of Nazareth. No mere spirit, but the corporal Lord who had lived among them. (The very first words about the Resurrection, the stone rolled away from the entrance of the sepulchre and the carefully folded burial clothes suggest substance.) Then we read how the disciples see him, feel his proximity, hear him, experience his body’s compactness, touching the wounds from the nails and placing their hands in the gash in his side. The whole incident of St. Thomas, who at first does not believe, only then, overwhelmed, to fling himself at the feet of the Lord, lets us share in the tremendous mystery of Christ’s corporality (John 20:24–29). The same intention leads to the description of his startling appearance in the room where his disciples are dining. They stare at him as at a ghost, until he quiets them by asking for something to eat and consumes it before their eyes (Luke 24:42). Again out on the lake, John sees a form on the beach: “It is the Lord.” And Peter leaps overboard and swims to him, while the others follow in the boat. Nearing the shore they see a fire burning and a fish on the coals, and Christ divides the fish and partakes of it with them (John 21:1–14). Such things and more are reported of Christ’s corporal reality, among them the memorable opening of St. John’s first Epistle: “I write of what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked upon and our hands have handled: of the Word of Life. And the Life was made known and we have seen, and now testify and announce to you, the Life Eternal which was with the Father, and has appeared to us. What we have seen and have heard we announce to you, in order that you also may have fellowship with us” (I John 1–3). Again and again it is stressed: Here is something far out of the ordinary. The Lord is transformed. His life is different from what it was, his existence incomprehensible. It has a new power that comes straight from the divine, to which it constantly returns for replenishment. Yet it is corporal; the whole Jesus is contained in it, his essence and his character. More: his earthly life, passion and death are incorporated into it, as the wounds show. Nothing is sloughed off; nothing left behind as unessential. Everything is tangible, though transformed, reality; that reality of which we were given a premonition on the last journey to Jerusalem—the mysterious lightning-like flash of the Transfiguration. This was no mere subjective experience of the disciples, but an independent reality; no ‘pure’ spirituality, but the saturation, transformation by the Holy Spirit of Christ’s whole life, body included. Indeed, only in the transformed existence, does the body fully come into its own. For the human body is different from the animal’s and is only then fulfilled when it no longer can be confused with the animal body. The Resurrection and Transfiguration are necessary to the full understanding of what the human body really is. Romano Guardini "The Lord"




Thomas* Aquinas treated the Resurrection of Jesus among the mysteries of Christ’s life (ST IIIa, q. 53–59). He distinguished miracles* that are arguments for the faith from those that are objects of faith, placing Jesus’ Resurrection in the latter category. Nevertheless, it also confirms the faith. Thomas particularly emphasized its salvational importance. Just as the Passion* liberates us from our ills, the Resurrection raises us to the goodness of the justification* (ST IIIa, q. 53, a. 1). This led Thomas to speculate on the charnel identity of the Risen Christ: his risen body is a real body, the same one he lived in before Easter. But it is also a “glorious” body: continuity must leave room for the rights of discontinuity. Jean-Yves Lacoste "Encyclopedia of Christian Theology"



Pa opet Toma o našim tijelima;


That Risen Bodies shall be of the same Nature as before. Some have supposed that in the resurrection our bodies are transformed into spirit, because the Apostle says: There is sown an animal body, there shall rise a spiritual body (1 Cor. xv, 40). [1038] And the text, Flesh and blood shall not possess the kingdom of God (1 Cor. xv, 50), has prompted the conjecture that risen bodies shall not have flesh and blood. But this is a manifest error. 1. Our resurrection shall be on the model of the resurrection of Christ, who will reform the body of our humiliation, so that it shall become conformable to the body of his glory (Phil. iii, 21). But Christ after His resurrection had a body that could be felt and handled, as He says: Feel and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me to have (Luke xxiv, 39): in like manner therefore also other risen men. Sv. Toma Akvinski "Summa contra Gentiles"

_________________
I thought love was only true in fairy tales,
Meant for someone else but not for me.
... ... ...
Then I saw her face! Now I'm a believer.
Not a trace of doubt in my mind.


Lol. Slika


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PostPostano: 01 svi 2015 22:04 
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Fran26 napisao:
perokvrzica napisao:
Pa moram ti reći da je meni njegovo društvo više nametnuto nego što ga biram. :lol:
Ne da čovjek nije zanimljjiv, dapače, nego je problem u tome što faaaaakaaaat sporo govori. I kad onda on krene s tim svojim na glas promišljanjima i tezama - ode pola dana.

Zanimljiv tip, imaš ti veselja. Tvoj tata, ti i taj tip, ako se pojavi još onaj skromni, kojemu je sve po volji, imate tema za razgovor. :) Da znaš da sam danas vodio dubokoumne razgovore sa Šegijem. Uz neizostavne teme kao što su: "Sumrak bogova" i Milanka Opačić, pojavile su se teme o boksericama i tipovima kao što su Tomo Horvatinčić. Lol. :)

perokvrzica napisao:
No pustimo mi to, jes ti meni našo odgovor?

The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a mystery of Faith. (Sent. Certa.)


Dakle, nemojmo se zavaravati da o tome možemo znati sve. Ipak, možemo znati odgovor na tvoje pitanje. Već dogma Crkve i sveto pismo daju smjer ka odgovoru;



God is absolutely immutable. (De fide.)

Heb 13,8 Isus Krist jučer i danas isti je - i uvijeke.

Iv 8,58 Zaista, zaista, kažem vam: prije negoli Abraham posta, Ja jesam!





Znači, prije i poslije uskrsnuća nije u pitanju drugi Krist, nego drugačiji Krist. Toma kaže; "same nature, but differed in glory". To je to. Jedna rečenica.



As stated above (Article 2), Christ's body in the Resurrection was "of the same nature, but differed in glory." Accordingly, whatever goes with the nature of a human body, was entirely in the body of Christ when He rose again. Now it is clear that flesh, bones, blood, and other such things, are of the very nature of the human body. Consequently, all these things were in Christ's body when He rose again; and this also integrally, without any diminution; otherwise it would not have been a complete resurrection, if whatever was lost by death had not been restored. Hence our Lord assured His faithful ones by saying (Matthew 10:30): "The very hairs of your head are all numbered": and (Luke 21:18): "A hair of your head shall not perish." Sv. Toma Akvinski "Summa Theologica"


A članak 2 kaže;


Whether Christ's body rose glorified?

Objection 1. It seems that Christ's body did not rise glorified. For glorified bodies shine, according to Matthew 13:43: "Then shall the just shine as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." But shining bodies are seen under the aspect of light, but not of color. Therefore, since Christ's body was beheld under the aspect of color, as it had been hitherto, it seems that it was not a glorified one.

Objection 2. Further, a glorified body is incorruptible. But Christ's body seems not to have been incorruptible; because it was palpable, as He Himself says in Luke 24:39: "Handle, and see." Now Gregory says (Hom. in Evang. xxvi) that "what is handled must be corruptible, and that which is incorruptible cannot be handled." Consequently, Christ's body was not glorified.

Objection 3. Further, a glorified body is not animal, but spiritual, as is clear from 1 Corinthians 15. But after the Resurrection Christ's body seems to have been animal, since He ate and drank with His disciples, as we read in the closing chapters of Luke and John. Therefore, it seems that Christ's body was not glorified.

On the contrary, The Apostle says (Philippians 3:21): "He will reform the body of our lowness, made like to the body of His glory."

I answer that, Christ's was a glorified body in His Resurrection, and this is evident from three reasons. First of all, because His Resurrection was the exemplar and the cause of ours, as is stated in 1 Corinthians 15:43. But in the resurrection the saints will have glorified bodies, as is written in the same place: "It is sown in dishonor, it shall rise in glory." Hence, since the cause is mightier than the effect, and the exemplar than the exemplate; much more glorious, then, was the body of Christ in His Resurrection. Secondly, because He merited the glory of His Resurrection by the lowliness of His Passion. Hence He said (John 12:27): "Now is My soul troubled," which refers to the Passion; and later He adds: "Father, glorify Thy name," whereby He asks for the glory of the Resurrection. Thirdly, because as stated above (Question 34, Article 4), Christ's soul was glorified from the instant of His conception by perfect fruition of the Godhead. But, as stated above (14, 1, ad 2), it was owing to the Divine economy that the glory did not pass from His soul to His body, in order that by the Passion He might accomplish the mystery of our redemption. Consequently, when this mystery of Christ's Passion and death was finished, straightway the soul communicated its glory to the risen body in the Resurrection; and so that body was made glorious.

Reply to Objection 1. Whatever is received within a subject is received according to the subject's capacity. Therefore, since glory flows from the soul into the body, it follows that, as Augustine says (Ep. ad Dioscor. cxviii), the brightness or splendor of a glorified body is after the manner of natural color in the human body; just as variously colored glass derives its splendor from the sun's radiance, according to the mode of the color. But as it lies within the power of a glorified man whether his body be seen or not, as stated above (1, ad 2), so is it in his power whether its splendor be seen or not. Accordingly it can be seen in its color without its brightness. And it was in this way that Christ's body appeared to the disciples after the Resurrection.

Reply to Objection 2. We say that a body can be handled not only because of its resistance, but also on account of its density. But from rarity and density follow weight and lightness, heat and cold, and similar contraries, which are the principles of corruption in elementary bodies. Consequently, a body that can be handled by human touch is naturally corruptible. But if there be a body that resists touch, and yet is not disposed according to the qualities mentioned, which are the proper objects of human touch, such as a heavenly body, then such body cannot be said to be handled. But Christ's body after the Resurrection was truly made up of elements, and had tangible qualities such as the nature of a human body requires, and therefore it could naturally be handled; and if it had nothing beyond the nature of a human body, it would likewise be corruptible. But it had something else which made it incorruptible, and this was not the nature of a heavenly body, as some maintain, and into which we shall make fuller inquiry later (XP, 82, 1), but it was glory flowing from a beatified soul: because, as Augustine says (Ep. ad Dioscor. cxviii): "God made the soul of such powerful nature, that from its fullest beatitude the fulness of health overflows into the body, that is, the vigor of incorruption." And therefore Gregory says (Hom. in Evang. xxvi): "Christ's body is shown to be of the same nature, but of different glory, after the Resurrection."

Reply to Objection 3. As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xiii): "After the Resurrection, our Saviour in spiritual but true flesh partook of meat with the disciples, not from need of food, but because it lay in His power." For as Bede says on Luke 24:41: "The thirsty earth sucks in the water, and the sun's burning ray absorbs it; the former from need, the latter by its power." Hence after the Resurrection He ate, "not as needing food, but in order thus to show the nature of His risen body." Nor does it follow that His was an animal body that stands in need of food. Sv. Toma Akvinski "Summa Theologica"




Ili, Romano Guardini;



When we read the Gospels’ accounts of Easter and the weeks immediately following it attentively, we notice the dual character of the Christ portrayed. The difference between the risen Christ and Jesus before his death—indeed, between the risen Christ and all men—is carefully stressed. His presence is strange; his coming shocks, terrifies. Actually he no longer comes and goes, but “appears” and “vanishes” with disturbing suddenness. Corporal limitations no longer hamper him; the barriers of time and space have ceased to exist. He moves with a freedom impossible on earth. Yet the Evangelists stress equally the fact that this is the same Jesus of Nazareth. No mere spirit, but the corporal Lord who had lived among them. (The very first words about the Resurrection, the stone rolled away from the entrance of the sepulchre and the carefully folded burial clothes suggest substance.) Then we read how the disciples see him, feel his proximity, hear him, experience his body’s compactness, touching the wounds from the nails and placing their hands in the gash in his side. The whole incident of St. Thomas, who at first does not believe, only then, overwhelmed, to fling himself at the feet of the Lord, lets us share in the tremendous mystery of Christ’s corporality (John 20:24–29). The same intention leads to the description of his startling appearance in the room where his disciples are dining. They stare at him as at a ghost, until he quiets them by asking for something to eat and consumes it before their eyes (Luke 24:42). Again out on the lake, John sees a form on the beach: “It is the Lord.” And Peter leaps overboard and swims to him, while the others follow in the boat. Nearing the shore they see a fire burning and a fish on the coals, and Christ divides the fish and partakes of it with them (John 21:1–14). Such things and more are reported of Christ’s corporal reality, among them the memorable opening of St. John’s first Epistle: “I write of what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked upon and our hands have handled: of the Word of Life. And the Life was made known and we have seen, and now testify and announce to you, the Life Eternal which was with the Father, and has appeared to us. What we have seen and have heard we announce to you, in order that you also may have fellowship with us” (I John 1–3). Again and again it is stressed: Here is something far out of the ordinary. The Lord is transformed. His life is different from what it was, his existence incomprehensible. It has a new power that comes straight from the divine, to which it constantly returns for replenishment. Yet it is corporal; the whole Jesus is contained in it, his essence and his character. More: his earthly life, passion and death are incorporated into it, as the wounds show. Nothing is sloughed off; nothing left behind as unessential. Everything is tangible, though transformed, reality; that reality of which we were given a premonition on the last journey to Jerusalem—the mysterious lightning-like flash of the Transfiguration. This was no mere subjective experience of the disciples, but an independent reality; no ‘pure’ spirituality, but the saturation, transformation by the Holy Spirit of Christ’s whole life, body included. Indeed, only in the transformed existence, does the body fully come into its own. For the human body is different from the animal’s and is only then fulfilled when it no longer can be confused with the animal body. The Resurrection and Transfiguration are necessary to the full understanding of what the human body really is. Romano Guardini "The Lord"




Thomas* Aquinas treated the Resurrection of Jesus among the mysteries of Christ’s life (ST IIIa, q. 53–59). He distinguished miracles* that are arguments for the faith from those that are objects of faith, placing Jesus’ Resurrection in the latter category. Nevertheless, it also confirms the faith. Thomas particularly emphasized its salvational importance. Just as the Passion* liberates us from our ills, the Resurrection raises us to the goodness of the justification* (ST IIIa, q. 53, a. 1). This led Thomas to speculate on the charnel identity of the Risen Christ: his risen body is a real body, the same one he lived in before Easter. But it is also a “glorious” body: continuity must leave room for the rights of discontinuity. Jean-Yves Lacoste "Encyclopedia of Christian Theology"



Pa opet Toma o našim tijelima;


That Risen Bodies shall be of the same Nature as before. Some have supposed that in the resurrection our bodies are transformed into spirit, because the Apostle says: There is sown an animal body, there shall rise a spiritual body (1 Cor. xv, 40). [1038] And the text, Flesh and blood shall not possess the kingdom of God (1 Cor. xv, 50), has prompted the conjecture that risen bodies shall not have flesh and blood. But this is a manifest error. 1. Our resurrection shall be on the model of the resurrection of Christ, who will reform the body of our humiliation, so that it shall become conformable to the body of his glory (Phil. iii, 21). But Christ after His resurrection had a body that could be felt and handled, as He says: Feel and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me to have (Luke xxiv, 39): in like manner therefore also other risen men. Sv. Toma Akvinski "Summa contra Gentiles"


Sunce ti žarko. Sad ću ovo morat sat vremena prevodit. Koji skromni? :roll:
E, ne znaš ti mog ćaću. On, ot kad se obratio - pari da je hodajuća kongregacija za nauk vjere. A pojma nema. Trebalo bi vas jednom spojit da ga malo podučiš/spustiš na zemlju.

Fala na odgovoru. :grlim te:


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PostPostano: 03 svi 2015 20:14 
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perokvrzica napisao:
Koji skromni? :roll:

Onaj tip koji dolazi kod vas. Nema ništa, ali i to ništa mu je po volji, pa se u korizmi odriče toga ništa. I to mu je sasvim normalno.

_________________
I thought love was only true in fairy tales,
Meant for someone else but not for me.
... ... ...
Then I saw her face! Now I'm a believer.
Not a trace of doubt in my mind.


Lol. Slika


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PostPostano: 05 svi 2015 11:09 
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perokvrzica napisao:
Koji skromni? :roll:

Onaj tip koji dolazi kod vas. Nema ništa, ali i to ništa mu je po volji, pa se u korizmi odriče toga ništa. I to mu je sasvim normalno.


Aha, aha.


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