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Pridružen: 10 lip 2008 20:55 Postovi: 3438 Lokacija: Santa Fe (New Mexico) Podijelio: 0 zahvala Zahvaljeno je: 72 zahvala
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Hrvoje Hrki napisao: Mene najviše muči slijedeće: Znamo da smo griješnici, da je naše srce puno grešnih misli,nauma,želja Znamo da smo grešni ljudi i da nam trebaju sveti sakramenti da se očistimo od grijeha...treba nam božja milost da postanemo čisti od grijeha, da ustrajemo u činjenju dobrih djela, da vjerujemo u svete sakramente i da ih primamo čim smo svjesni da smo u grijehu Znači, potrebna nam je božja milost koje nam Bog daje kroz sakramente svoje Crkve (KC)
Sve te grijehe mi činimo jer je naša duša ranjena iskonskim, izvornim grijehom, danas to najčešće u teologiju zovu istočnim grijehom !( jer iz njega istječu svi ostali grijesi!)koje počiniše prvi ljudi
Za krštenike KC se kaže da nas krštenje taj inicijalni sakrament oslobađa od istočnog grijeha i od osobnih grijeha koje smo do tada učinili naglašavam svi naši grijesi proistječu iz grijeha adama i eve , iz istočnog, izvornog grijeha!to tvrdi nauk kc Meni sada nije jasno ako nas sakrament krštenja oslobođa od istočnog grijeha( i svih ostalih grijeha koji iz njega proizlaze), kako to da mi i dalje griješimo!?? Kako to da kod nas krštenih katolika naša narav, naša duša, ili naš duh ostaje nepromijenjen. Kako to da mi ostajemo isti ili jako slični nekrštenim ljudima ( u odnosu na činjenje grijeha)!?? Nemojmo samo reći, oslobođeni smo ist.grijeha, ali nismo od posljedica istočnoga grijeha Šta to onda točno ,ali i efektivno znači- oslobođen si od istočnoga grijeha??Kakva korist od toga da si oslobođen IG ,a nisi od posljedica istoga??? Hrvoje Hrki napisao: Pa ,iskreno očekivao sam ovakav odgovor Sam sam na kraju posta rekao, nemojte reći oslobođeni smo IG,ali nismo posljedica toga grijeha ---i pitao dalje,šta efektivno, u biti znači oslobođena nam je duša od istočnog grijeha,akoi dalje nije oslobođena od posljedica istočnoga grijeha
Mene zanima u biti ovo...krštenjem , se naša narav bitno ne mijenja...mi smo i dalje grešne osobe, sa velikim sklonostima ,nagnućima naše naravi na grijeh! to ste rekli i vi i cijenjeni Bonifacije..ili tako nešto Bonifacije tu malo garaduira...spominje pojmove djelomično...potpuno isl...on govori da nekih promjena na bolje ima
Ali mene zanima , neznam u biti hoću li uhvatiti i izraziti točno misao...ali recimo to ovako: koja je razlika u grešnosti, u naravi osobe/duše krštenoga katolika i u naravi jednog nekrštenoga muslimana, hindusa, ateista? Ima li u grešnosti i u grijehu sklonoj naravi ikakve razlike između nas, krštenih katolika i njih? ...u čemu je točno razlika nemojmo samo pričati o pojmovima u stilu mi smo ucijepljeni u Krista , mi smo dio Kristovog tijela oni nisu isl.,,,mene zanima baš kvalitativno, u efektivnom smislu koja je razlika izmeđiu nas i njih? Evo šta kaže Catechism of the Council of Trent iz 1566 god., citiram; Effects of Baptism
To inflame the minds of the faithful, however, with a zeal for true piety, pastors will find no means more efficacious than an accurate exposition of the effects of Baptism. The effects of Baptism should be frequently explained, in order that the faithful may be rendered more sensible of the high dignity to which they have been raised, and may never suffer themselves to be cast down therefrom by the snares or assaults of Satan.
First Effect Of Baptism: Remission Of Sin
They are to be taught, in the first place, that such is the admirable efficacy of this Sacrament that it remits original sin and actual guilt, however unthinkable its enormity may seem. This was foretold long before by Ezechiel, through whom God said: I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness. The Apostle also, writing to the Corinthians, after having enumerated a long catalogue of sins, adds: such you were, but you are washed, but you are sanctified. That such was at all times the doctrine handed down by holy Church is clear. By the generation of the flesh, says St. Augustine in his book On the Baptism of Infants, we contract original sin only; by the regeneration of the Spirit, we obtain forgiveness not only of original, but also of actual sins. St. Jerome also, writing to Oceanus, says: all sins are forgiven in Baptism. To remove all further doubt on the subject, the Council of Trent, after other Councils had defined this, declared it anew, pronouncing anathema against those who should presume to think otherwise, or should dare to assert that although sin is forgiven in Baptism, it is not entirely removed or totally eradicated, but is cut away in such a manner as to leave its roots still fixed in the soul. To use the words of the same holy Council, God hates nothing in those who are regenerated; for there remains nothing deserving of condemnation in those who are truly buried with Christ by Baptism unto death, "who walk not according to the flesh" but putting off the old man, and putting on the new, who is created according to God, become innocent, spotless, pure, upright, and beloved of God.
Concupiscence Which Remains After Baptism Is No Sin
We must confess, however, that concupiscence, or the fuel of sin, still remains, as the Council declares in the same place. But concupiscence does not constitute sin, for, as St. Augustine observes, in children who have been baptised the guilt of concupiscence is removed, (the concupiscence itself) remains for probation; and in another place he says: the guilt of concupiscence is pardoned in Baptism, but its infirmity remains. For concupiscence which is the effect of sin is nothing more than an appetite of the soul in itself repugnant to reason. But if it is not accompanied by the consent of the will or by negligence, it is very far from being sin. When St. Paul says, I did not know concupiscence, if the law did not say: Thou shalt not covet, he speaks not of concupiscence itself, but of the fault of the will. The same doctrine is taught by St. Gregory when he says: If there are any who assert that in Baptism sin is but superficially effaced, what could be more untrue than their statement? By the Sacrament of faith the soul, entirely freed from sin, adheres to God alone. In proof of this doctrine he has recourse to the testimony of our Saviour who says in St. John: He that is -washed, needeth not but to wash his feet, but is clean wholly.
Further Proof Of The First Effect Of Baptism
Should anyone desire a striking figure and image (of the efficacy of Baptism) let him consider the history of Naaman the Syrian leper, of whom the Scriptures inform us that when he had washed seven times in the waters of the Jordan he was so cleansed from his leprosy that his flesh became like the flesh of a child. The remission of all sin, original and actual, is therefore the peculiar effect of Baptism. That this was the object of its institution by our Lord and Saviour is clearly stated by the Prince of the Apostles, to say nothing of other testimonies, when he says: Do penance and be baptised every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins.
The Second Effect Of Baptism: Remission Of All Punishment Due To Sin
In Baptism not only is sin forgiven, but with it all the punishment due to sin is mercifully remitted by God. To communicate the efficacy of the Passion of Christ our Lord is an effect common to all the Sacraments; but of Baptism alone does the Apostle say, that by it we die and are buried together with Christ. Hence holy Church has always understood that to impose those works of piety, usually called by the holy Fathers works of satisfaction, on one who is to be cleansed in Baptism, would be injurious to this Sacrament in the highest degree. Nor is there any discrepancy between the doctrine here taught and the practice of the primitive Church, which of old commanded the Jews, when preparing for Baptism, to observe a fast of forty successive days. (The fast thus imposed) was not enjoined as a work of satisfaction; but those who had received Baptism were thus admonished to devote some time to the uninterrupted exercise of fasting and prayer in honour of so great a Sacrament.
Baptism Remits The Punishment Due To Original Sin After Death
Baptism also remits all the punishment due to original sin after this life, for through the merit of the death of our Lord we are able to attain this blessing. By Baptism, as we have already said, we die with Christ. For if, says the Apostle, we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.
Baptism Does Not Free Us From The Miseries Of Life
Should it be asked why immediately after Baptism we are not exempt in this mortal life from misfortunes and restored by the influence of this sacred ablution to that state of perfection in which Adam, the father of the human race, was placed before his fall, the answer will be that there are two chief reasons for this. In the first place we who by Baptism are united to, and become members of Christ's body, should not be more honoured than our Head. Now Christ our Lord, although clothed from His birth with the plenitude of grace and truth, was not divested of human infirmity which He assumed, until, having suffered and died, He rose to the glory of immortality. It cannot appear extraordinary, therefore, if the faithful, even after they have received the grace of justification by Baptism, are clothed with frail and perishable bodies until, having undergone many labours for the sake of Christ, and having closed their earthly career, they are recalled to life and found worthy to enjoy with Him an eternity of bliss. The second reason why bodily infirmity, disease, sense of pain and motions of concupiscence remain after Baptism is that in them we may have the seed and material of virtue from which we shall hereafter receive a more abundant harvest of glory and more ample rewards. When, with patient resignation, we bear all the trials of life, and, aided by the divine assistance, subject to the dominion of reason the rebellious desires of the heart, we ought to cherish an assured hope that if, with the Apostle we shall have fought a good fight, finished the course, and kept the faith, the Lord, the just judge, will render to us on that day a crown of justice which is laid up for us. Such seems to have been the divine plan with regard to the children of Israel. God delivered them from the bondage of Egypt, having drowned Pharaoh and his hosts in the sea; yet He did not conduct them immediately into the happy land of promise; He first tried them by a variety and multiplicity of sufferings. And when He afterwards placed them in possession of the promised land and expelled the previous inhabitants from their native territories, yet He left a few other nations whom the Israelites could not exterminate, in order that His people might always have occasion to exercise fortitude and warlike courage. We may add that if, to the heavenly gifts with which the soul is adorned in Baptism, were joined temporal advantages, there would be good reason to doubt whether many might not approach Baptism with a view to obtain such advantages in this life, rather than the glory to be hoped for in the next; whereas the Christian should always propose to himself, not these delusive and uncertain goods which are seen, but the solid and eternal ones which are not seen.
Baptism A Source Of Happiness To The Christian Even In This Life
This life, however, although full of misery, does not lack its pleasures and joys. To us, who by Baptism are engrafted as branches on Christ's what could be more pleasing or desirable than, taking up the cross upon our shoulders, to follow Him as our leader, fatigued by no labor, retarded by no danger, in ardent pursuit of the rewards of our high vocation; some to receive the laurel of virginity, others the crown of teaching and preaching, some the palm of martyrdom, others the honours appropriate to their respective virtues? These splendid titles of exalted dignity none of us should receive, had we not contended in the race of this calamitous life and stood unconquered in the conflict.
Third Effect Of Baptism: Grace Of Regeneration
But to return to the effects of Baptism, it should be taught that by virtue of this Sacrament we are not only delivered from what are justly deemed the greatest of all evils, but are also enriched with invaluable goods and blessings. Our souls are replenished with divine grace, by which we are rendered just and children of God and are made heirs to eternal salvation. For it is written: He that believeth and is baptised, shall be saved, and the Apostle testifies that the Church is cleansed by the laver of water in the word of life. Now according to the definition of the Council of Trent, which under pain of anathema we are bound to believe, grace not only remits sin, but is also a divine quality inherent in the soul, and, as it were, a brilliant light that effaces all those stains which obscure the lustre of the soul, investing it with increased brightness and beauty. This is also a clear inference from the words of Scripture when it says that grace is poured forth, and also when it usually calls grace, the pledge of the Holy Ghost.
Fourth Effect Of Baptism: Infused Virtues And Incorporation With Christ
This grace is accompanied by a most splendid train of all virtues, which are divinely infused into the soul along with grace. Hence, when writing to Titus, the Apostle says: He saved us by the laver of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Ghost, whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour. St. Augustine, in explanation of the words, poured forth abundantly, says: that is, for the remission of sins and for abundance of virtues. By Baptism we are also united to Christ, as members to their Head. As therefore from the head proceeds the power by which the different members of the body are moved to the proper performance of their respective functions, so from the fullness of Christ the Lord are diffused divine grace and virtue through all those who are justified, qualifying them for the performance of all the duties of Christian piety.
Why The Practice Of Virtue Is Difficult Even After Baptism
Though we are thus supported by a powerful array of virtues, it should not excite our surprise if we cannot, without much labor and difficulty, undertake, or at least, perform acts of piety and of moral virtue. If this is so, it is not because the goodness of God has not bestowed on us the virtues from which these good works proceed; but because there still remains after Baptism a severe conflict of the flesh against the spirit, in which, however, it would not become a Christian to be dispirited or grow faint. Relying on the divine goodness we should confidently hope that by a constant habit of leading a holy life the time will come when whatever things are modest, whatever just, whatever holy, will also prove easy and agreeable. Let these be the subjects of our willing consideration, the objects of our cheerful practice, that the God of peace may be with us.
Fifth Effect Of Baptism: Character Of Christian
By Baptism, moreover, we are sealed with a character that can never be effaced from the soul. On this point, however, we need not speak at length, for what we have already sufficiently said on the subject, when treating of the Sacraments in general, may be applied here.
Sixth Effect Of Baptism: Opening The Gates Of Heaven
Besides the other advantages which accrue to us from Baptism, the last, to which all the others seem to be referred, is that it opens to us the portals of heaven which sin had closed against us. Effects Of Baptism Foreshadowed In The Baptism Of Christ These effects which are wrought in us by virtue of Baptism are distinctly marked by the circumstances which, as the Gospel relates, accompanied the Baptism of our Saviour. The heavens were opened and the Holy Ghost appeared descending upon Christ our Lord in the form of a dove. By this we are given to understand that to those who are baptised are imparted the gifts of the Holy Spirit, that to them are opened the gates of heaven. The baptised, it is true, do not enter heaven immediately after Baptism, but in due season. When they shall have been freed from all misery which is incompatible with a state of bliss, they shall exchange a mortal for an immortal life.Vidiš Hrkane o čemu ti govorim?! Uzimaš "mrvice" od forumskih-naučitelja a možeš imati sve. To mi nikad ni bilo jasno kod tebe.
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