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Hrvoje Hrki napisao:
Mene najviše muči slijedeće:
Znamo da smo griješnici, da je naše srce puno grešnih misli,nauma,želja
Znamo da smo grešni ljudi i da nam trebaju sveti sakramenti da se očistimo od grijeha...treba nam božja milost da postanemo čisti od grijeha, da ustrajemo u činjenju dobrih djela, da vjerujemo u svete sakramente i da ih primamo čim smo svjesni da smo u grijehu
Znači, potrebna nam je božja milost koje nam Bog daje kroz sakramente svoje Crkve (KC)

Sve te grijehe mi činimo jer je naša duša ranjena iskonskim, izvornim grijehom, danas to najčešće u teologiju zovu istočnim grijehom !( jer iz njega istječu svi ostali grijesi!)koje počiniše prvi ljudi

Za krštenike KC se kaže da nas krštenje taj inicijalni sakrament oslobađa od istočnog grijeha i od osobnih grijeha koje smo do tada učinili
naglašavam svi naši grijesi proistječu iz grijeha adama i eve , iz istočnog, izvornog grijeha!to tvrdi nauk kc
Meni sada nije jasno ako nas sakrament krštenja oslobođa od istočnog grijeha( i svih ostalih grijeha koji iz njega proizlaze), kako to da mi i dalje griješimo!??
Kako to da kod nas krštenih katolika naša narav, naša duša, ili naš duh ostaje nepromijenjen.

Kako to da mi ostajemo isti ili jako slični nekrštenim ljudima ( u odnosu na činjenje grijeha)!??
Nemojmo samo reći, oslobođeni smo ist.grijeha, ali nismo od posljedica istočnoga grijeha
Šta to onda točno ,ali i efektivno znači- oslobođen si od istočnoga grijeha??Kakva korist od toga da si oslobođen IG ,a nisi od posljedica istoga???

Hrvoje Hrki napisao:
Pa ,iskreno očekivao sam ovakav odgovor
Sam sam na kraju posta rekao, nemojte reći oslobođeni smo IG,ali nismo posljedica toga grijeha ---i pitao dalje,šta efektivno, u biti znači oslobođena nam je duša od istočnog grijeha,akoi dalje nije oslobođena od posljedica istočnoga grijeha

Mene zanima u biti ovo...krštenjem , se naša narav bitno ne mijenja...mi smo i dalje grešne osobe, sa velikim sklonostima ,nagnućima naše naravi na grijeh! to ste rekli i vi i cijenjeni Bonifacije..ili tako nešto
Bonifacije tu malo garaduira...spominje pojmove djelomično...potpuno isl...on govori da nekih promjena na bolje ima

Ali mene zanima , neznam u biti hoću li uhvatiti i izraziti točno misao...ali recimo to ovako:
koja je razlika u grešnosti, u naravi osobe/duše krštenoga katolika i u naravi jednog nekrštenoga muslimana, hindusa, ateista?
Ima li u grešnosti i u grijehu sklonoj naravi ikakve razlike između nas, krštenih katolika i njih? ...u čemu je točno razlika
nemojmo samo pričati o pojmovima u stilu mi smo ucijepljeni u Krista , mi smo dio Kristovog tijela oni nisu isl.,,,mene zanima baš kvalitativno, u efektivnom smislu koja je razlika izmeđiu nas i njih?

Evo šta kaže Catechism of the Council of Trent iz 1566 god., citiram;



Effects of Baptism

To inflame the minds of the faithful, however, with a zeal for true piety, pastors will find no means more efficacious than an accurate exposition of the effects of Baptism. The effects of Baptism should be frequently explained, in order that the faithful may be rendered more sensible of the high dignity to which they have been raised, and may never suffer themselves to be cast down therefrom by the snares or assaults of Satan.

First Effect Of Baptism: Remission Of Sin

They are to be taught, in the first place, that such is the admirable efficacy of this Sacrament that it remits original sin and actual guilt, however unthinkable its enormity may seem. This was foretold long before by Ezechiel, through whom God said: I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness. The Apostle also, writing to the Corinthians, after having enumerated a long catalogue of sins, adds: such you were, but you are washed, but you are sanctified. That such was at all times the doctrine handed down by holy Church is clear. By the generation of the flesh, says St. Augustine in his book On the Baptism of Infants, we contract original sin only; by the regeneration of the Spirit, we obtain forgiveness not only of original, but also of actual sins. St. Jerome also, writing to Oceanus, says: all sins are forgiven in Baptism. To remove all further doubt on the subject, the Council of Trent, after other Councils had defined this, declared it anew, pronouncing anathema against those who should presume to think otherwise, or should dare to assert that although sin is forgiven in Baptism, it is not entirely removed or totally eradicated, but is cut away in such a manner as to leave its roots still fixed in the soul. To use the words of the same holy Council, God hates nothing in those who are regenerated; for there remains nothing deserving of condemnation in those who are truly buried with Christ by Baptism unto death, "who walk not according to the flesh" but putting off the old man, and putting on the new, who is created according to God, become innocent, spotless, pure, upright, and beloved of God.

Concupiscence Which Remains After Baptism Is No Sin

We must confess, however, that concupiscence, or the fuel of sin, still remains, as the Council declares in the same place. But concupiscence does not constitute sin, for, as St. Augustine observes, in children who have been baptised the guilt of concupiscence is removed, (the concupiscence itself) remains for probation; and in another place he says: the guilt of concupiscence is pardoned in Baptism, but its infirmity remains. For concupiscence which is the effect of sin is nothing more than an appetite of the soul in itself repugnant to reason. But if it is not accompanied by the consent of the will or by negligence, it is very far from being sin. When St. Paul says, I did not know concupiscence, if the law did not say: Thou shalt not covet, he speaks not of concupiscence itself, but of the fault of the will. The same doctrine is taught by St. Gregory when he says: If there are any who assert that in Baptism sin is but superficially effaced, what could be more untrue than their statement? By the Sacrament of faith the soul, entirely freed from sin, adheres to God alone. In proof of this doctrine he has recourse to the testimony of our Saviour who says in St. John: He that is -washed, needeth not but to wash his feet, but is clean wholly.

Further Proof Of The First Effect Of Baptism

Should anyone desire a striking figure and image (of the efficacy of Baptism) let him consider the history of Naaman the Syrian leper, of whom the Scriptures inform us that when he had washed seven times in the waters of the Jordan he was so cleansed from his leprosy that his flesh became like the flesh of a child. The remission of all sin, original and actual, is therefore the peculiar effect of Baptism. That this was the object of its institution by our Lord and Saviour is clearly stated by the Prince of the Apostles, to say nothing of other testimonies, when he says: Do penance and be baptised every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins.

The Second Effect Of Baptism: Remission Of All Punishment Due To Sin

In Baptism not only is sin forgiven, but with it all the punishment due to sin is mercifully remitted by God. To communicate the efficacy of the Passion of Christ our Lord is an effect common to all the Sacraments; but of Baptism alone does the Apostle say, that by it we die and are buried together with Christ. Hence holy Church has always understood that to impose those works of piety, usually called by the holy Fathers works of satisfaction, on one who is to be cleansed in Baptism, would be injurious to this Sacrament in the highest degree. Nor is there any discrepancy between the doctrine here taught and the practice of the primitive Church, which of old commanded the Jews, when preparing for Baptism, to observe a fast of forty successive days. (The fast thus imposed) was not enjoined as a work of satisfaction; but those who had received Baptism were thus admonished to devote some time to the uninterrupted exercise of fasting and prayer in honour of so great a Sacrament.

Baptism Remits The Punishment Due To Original Sin After Death

Baptism also remits all the punishment due to original sin after this life, for through the merit of the death of our Lord we are able to attain this blessing. By Baptism, as we have already said, we die with Christ. For if, says the Apostle, we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

Baptism Does Not Free Us From The Miseries Of Life

Should it be asked why immediately after Baptism we are not exempt in this mortal life from misfortunes and restored by the influence of this sacred ablution to that state of perfection in which Adam, the father of the human race, was placed before his fall, the answer will be that there are two chief reasons for this. In the first place we who by Baptism are united to, and become members of Christ's body, should not be more honoured than our Head. Now Christ our Lord, although clothed from His birth with the plenitude of grace and truth, was not divested of human infirmity which He assumed, until, having suffered and died, He rose to the glory of immortality. It cannot appear extraordinary, therefore, if the faithful, even after they have received the grace of justification by Baptism, are clothed with frail and perishable bodies until, having undergone many labours for the sake of Christ, and having closed their earthly career, they are recalled to life and found worthy to enjoy with Him an eternity of bliss. The second reason why bodily infirmity, disease, sense of pain and motions of concupiscence remain after Baptism is that in them we may have the seed and material of virtue from which we shall hereafter receive a more abundant harvest of glory and more ample rewards. When, with patient resignation, we bear all the trials of life, and, aided by the divine assistance, subject to the dominion of reason the rebellious desires of the heart, we ought to cherish an assured hope that if, with the Apostle we shall have fought a good fight, finished the course, and kept the faith, the Lord, the just judge, will render to us on that day a crown of justice which is laid up for us. Such seems to have been the divine plan with regard to the children of Israel. God delivered them from the bondage of Egypt, having drowned Pharaoh and his hosts in the sea; yet He did not conduct them immediately into the happy land of promise; He first tried them by a variety and multiplicity of sufferings. And when He afterwards placed them in possession of the promised land and expelled the previous inhabitants from their native territories, yet He left a few other nations whom the Israelites could not exterminate, in order that His people might always have occasion to exercise fortitude and warlike courage. We may add that if, to the heavenly gifts with which the soul is adorned in Baptism, were joined temporal advantages, there would be good reason to doubt whether many might not approach Baptism with a view to obtain such advantages in this life, rather than the glory to be hoped for in the next; whereas the Christian should always propose to himself, not these delusive and uncertain goods which are seen, but the solid and eternal ones which are not seen.

Baptism A Source Of Happiness To The Christian Even In This Life

This life, however, although full of misery, does not lack its pleasures and joys. To us, who by Baptism are engrafted as branches on Christ's what could be more pleasing or desirable than, taking up the cross upon our shoulders, to follow Him as our leader, fatigued by no labor, retarded by no danger, in ardent pursuit of the rewards of our high vocation; some to receive the laurel of virginity, others the crown of teaching and preaching, some the palm of martyrdom, others the honours appropriate to their respective virtues? These splendid titles of exalted dignity none of us should receive, had we not contended in the race of this calamitous life and stood unconquered in the conflict.

Third Effect Of Baptism: Grace Of Regeneration

But to return to the effects of Baptism, it should be taught that by virtue of this Sacrament we are not only delivered from what are justly deemed the greatest of all evils, but are also enriched with invaluable goods and blessings. Our souls are replenished with divine grace, by which we are rendered just and children of God and are made heirs to eternal salvation. For it is written: He that believeth and is baptised, shall be saved, and the Apostle testifies that the Church is cleansed by the laver of water in the word of life. Now according to the definition of the Council of Trent, which under pain of anathema we are bound to believe, grace not only remits sin, but is also a divine quality inherent in the soul, and, as it were, a brilliant light that effaces all those stains which obscure the lustre of the soul, investing it with increased brightness and beauty. This is also a clear inference from the words of Scripture when it says that grace is poured forth, and also when it usually calls grace, the pledge of the Holy Ghost.


Fourth Effect Of Baptism: Infused Virtues And Incorporation With Christ

This grace is accompanied by a most splendid train of all virtues, which are divinely infused into the soul along with grace. Hence, when writing to Titus, the Apostle says: He saved us by the laver of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Ghost, whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour. St. Augustine, in explanation of the words, poured forth abundantly, says: that is, for the remission of sins and for abundance of virtues. By Baptism we are also united to Christ, as members to their Head. As therefore from the head proceeds the power by which the different members of the body are moved to the proper performance of their respective functions, so from the fullness of Christ the Lord are diffused divine grace and virtue through all those who are justified, qualifying them for the performance of all the duties of Christian piety.


Why The Practice Of Virtue Is Difficult Even After Baptism

Though we are thus supported by a powerful array of virtues, it should not excite our surprise if we cannot, without much labor and difficulty, undertake, or at least, perform acts of piety and of moral virtue. If this is so, it is not because the goodness of God has not bestowed on us the virtues from which these good works proceed; but because there still remains after Baptism a severe conflict of the flesh against the spirit, in which, however, it would not become a Christian to be dispirited or grow faint. Relying on the divine goodness we should confidently hope that by a constant habit of leading a holy life the time will come when whatever things are modest, whatever just, whatever holy, will also prove easy and agreeable. Let these be the subjects of our willing consideration, the objects of our cheerful practice, that the God of peace may be with us.

Fifth Effect Of Baptism: Character Of Christian

By Baptism, moreover, we are sealed with a character that can never be effaced from the soul. On this point, however, we need not speak at length, for what we have already sufficiently said on the subject, when treating of the Sacraments in general, may be applied here.

Sixth Effect Of Baptism: Opening The Gates Of Heaven

Besides the other advantages which accrue to us from Baptism, the last, to which all the others seem to be referred, is that it opens to us the portals of heaven which sin had closed against us. Effects Of Baptism Foreshadowed In The Baptism Of Christ These effects which are wrought in us by virtue of Baptism are distinctly marked by the circumstances which, as the Gospel relates, accompanied the Baptism of our Saviour. The heavens were opened and the Holy Ghost appeared descending upon Christ our Lord in the form of a dove. By this we are given to understand that to those who are baptised are imparted the gifts of the Holy Spirit, that to them are opened the gates of heaven. The baptised, it is true, do not enter heaven immediately after Baptism, but in due season. When they shall have been freed from all misery which is incompatible with a state of bliss, they shall exchange a mortal for an immortal life.



Vidiš Hrkane o čemu ti govorim?! Uzimaš "mrvice" od forumskih-naučitelja a možeš imati sve. To mi nikad ni bilo jasno kod tebe. :l30:

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Don't say you love me.
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Lol. Slika Slika


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Joj ...opet sve na engleskom...pa ima li išta kod nas hrvata , vel.katolika išta na hrvatskom?
kad stignem , pročitati ću i prevesti koliko mogu u glavi...stavlajti na gogle transleter nema smisla, jer prijevod uvijek ispadne karikatura :twisted:
Hvala ti na trudu, vidim da se referira na efektivne učinke...i to baš koncil u tridentu što ima najveću težinu :D

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Ne trebas se mucit da to prevodis Hrki. To je u biti ono sto sam ti ja rekao. Nista vise ni bolje tu nije receno. Ali dobro je da je netko citirao i ovaj Rimski katekizam koji je puno bolji nego KKC. Evo sto Isus kaze u vezi krstenja u objavama M.Valtorte:

"Krstite vodom u Ime Boga jednoga i trojnoga i u moje Ime i po mojim beskrajnim zaslugama,da se u srcima izbrise Istocni grijeh,da se otpuste grijesi,da se uliju Milost i svete kreposti i da Duh Sveti moze sici da stanuje u posvecenim hramovima sto ce biti tijela ljudi koji ce zivjeti u milosti Gospodinovoj"(Sv. X,str. 244).

Evo,Hrki,u toj jednoj jedinoj recenici,koju je Isus izgovorio u onom predivnom govoru o svih sedam sakramenata,nalazi se sva teologija sakramenta krstenja. Dakle,sakrament krstenja proizvodi velike promjene u ljudskoj naravi i covjeka uzdize u jedno nadnaravno stanje radi Milosti koju Bog ulijeva u covjekovu dusu. A Milost posvecuje covjeka. Ali ako covjek nakon krstenja upadne u smrtni grijeh,on ponovno razara svoju narav i gubi milost Bozju. I to je razlog zasto krsteni ljudi cesto nisu bolji od nekrstenih ljudi,a ne zato sto sakrament krstenja ne bi imao nikakav ucinak na ljudsku narav.

Pitao si u vezi Medjugorja pa cu ti samo ukratko odgovorit. Ja osobno vjerujem da se Gospa u pocetku stvarno ukazivala djeci,a poslije se vjerovatno ubacio Sotona da pokvari Bozje djelo. Nisam 100% siguran jer se nisam puno bavio fenomenom 'Medjugorje' ali postoji velika vjerovatnost da se u jednom trenutku Bog povlaci,a na njegovo mjesto postavlja se Sotona. Glavni razlog za moju sumnju je jedna poruka u kojoj se kaze da najvise dusa ide u cistiliste sto je apsolutno pogresno i krivovjerno. Ali buduci da uvijek postoji mogucnost da je poruka prenesena na pogresan nacin, ne mogu biti potpuno siguran da je tu poruku nadahnuo Sotona. Ali ako je ta poruka stvarno tocno prenesena,onda iza takve poruke moze biti samo Sotona. A kad je u pitanju Garabandal kojeg si spomenuo u jednom postu onda nema nikakve sumnje: tu je Sotona na djelu od samog pocetka. I Marino Restrepo je prevaren od Sotone. Za Vassulu sam vec rekao da je primala lazne objave i to cijelo vrijeme. Ali ako postoje lazne objave,to ne znaci da imao pravo odbacit i one prave kao sto su objave M.Valtorte.


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Hrvoje Hrki napisao:
Joj ...opet sve na engleskom...pa ima li išta kod nas hrvata , vel.katolika išta na hrvatskom?

Ni meni nije drago kad je nešto na engleskom. Ali, činjenica jest da je većina toga na engleskom. :l30: Dosta stvari se prevelo na naš jezik, a još više se nije prevelo. Tak da si dosta zakinut ako ne znaš engleski jezik. Jednom je moj dobri prijatelj i učitelj napisao Samuelu, citiram;

Ako je Joseph Haydn u svojoj 58. godini mogao *početi* učiti engleski (da bi se mogao dopisivati s jednom svojom prijateljicom engleskinjom), možeš i ti u 30 i nekoj. Tim prije što je engleski danas lingua franca cijeloga svijeta (uključujući i interneta), i tko ga ne razumije de facto je nepismen. Ne želiš valjda ostati nepismen cijeli život? Jobica (zvani Timotej) "Pravovjerje" 27.9.2012.

Samuel je negodovao što se dosta citata stavljalo na engleskom. I meni je to bilo za negodovanje, ali očito i za poticaj. Istina da treba truda, ali za šta ne treba?! Naučiš se i onda imaš "materjala" za tri života. Sve, ali doslovno sve se može pronaći na engleskom. Filozofija ili teologija, sasvim nebitno.

Hrvoje Hrki napisao:
kad stignem , pročitati ću i prevesti koliko mogu u glavi..

Daj si truda ili nekog zamoli da ti prevede. Sa posebnim naglaskom na: "Baptism Does Not Free Us From The Miseries Of Life" i "Why The Practice Of Virtue Is Difficult Even After Baptism". Upravo to si između ostalog postavio u pitanju.


Zamisli koje se pitanje Toma pita u "Sumi teologije". Citiram;


Whether madmen and imbeciles should be baptized?


Objection 1. It seems that madmen and imbeciles should not be baptized. For in order to receive Baptism, the person baptized must have the intention, as stated above (Article 7). But since madmen and imbeciles lack the use of reason, they can have but a disorderly intention. Therefore they should not be baptized.

Objection 2. Further, man excels irrational animals in that he has reason. But madmen and imbeciles lack the use of reason, indeed in some cases we do not expect them ever to have it, as we do in the case of children. It seems, therefore, that just as irrational animals are not baptized, so neither should madmen and imbeciles in those cases be baptized.

Objection 3. Further, the use of reason is suspended in madmen and imbeciles more than it is in one who sleeps. But it is not customary to baptize people while they sleep. Therefore it should not be given to madmen and imbeciles.

On the contrary, Augustine says (Confess. iv) of his friend that "he was baptized when his recovery was despaired of": and yet Baptism was efficacious with him. Therefore Baptism should sometimes be given to those who lack the use of reason.

I answer that, In the matter of madmen and imbeciles a distinction is to be made. For some are so from birth, and have no lucid intervals, and show no signs of the use of reason. And with regard to these it seems that we should come to the same decision as with regard to children who are baptized in the Faith of the Church, as stated above (Article 9, Reply to Objection 2).

But there are others who have fallen from a state of sanity into a state of insanity. And with regard to these we must be guided by their wishes as expressed by them when sane: so that, if then they manifested a desire to receive Baptism, it should be given to them when in a state of madness or imbecility, even though then they refuse. If, on the other hand, while sane they showed no desire to receive Baptism, they must not be baptized.

Again, there are some who, though mad or imbecile from birth, have, nevertheless, lucid intervals, in which they can make right use of reason. Wherefore, if then they express a desire for Baptism, they can be baptized though they be actually in a state of madness. And in this case the sacrament should be bestowed on them if there be fear of danger otherwise it is better to wait until the time when they are sane, so that they may receive the sacrament more devoutly. But if during the interval of lucidity they manifest no desire to receive Baptism, they should not be baptized while in a state of insanity.

Lastly there are others who, though not altogether sane, yet can use their reason so far as to think about their salvation, and understand the power of the sacrament. And these are to be treated the same as those who are sane, and who are baptized if they be willing, but not against their will.

Reply to Objection 1. Imbeciles who never had, and have not now, the use of reason, are baptized, according to the Church's intention, just as according to the Church's ritual, they believe and repent; as we have stated above of children (9, ad Objection). But those who have had the use of reason at some time, or have now, are baptized according to their own intention, which they have now, or had when they were sane.

Reply to Objection 2. Madmen and imbeciles lack the use of reason accidentally, i.e. through some impediment in a bodily organ; but not like irrational animals through want of a rational soul. Consequently the comparison does not hold.

Reply to Objection 3. A person should not be baptized while asleep, except he be threatened with the danger of death. In which case he should be baptized, if previously he has manifested a desire to receive Baptism, as we have stated in reference to imbeciles: thus Augustine relates of his friend that "he was baptized while unconscious," because he was in danger of death (Confess. iv). Thomas Aquinas "Summa Theologica"



p.s. Zašto ti Hrkane nikad nisi htio prihvatiti Jobicu (zvanog Timotej) za učitelja?! Sve druge si prihvatio, bez obzira koliko su tipovi bili glupi. Jobicu nikad nisi prihvatio za učitelja. A uvijek je bio pametniji od svih nas. Nikad nisam vidio pametnijeg forumaša od njega. Stvarno mi ni jasno zašto te Jobica nikad nije zanimao. :l30: Trebao si to učiniti. Trebao si ga prihvatiti za "učitelja". Kamo li sreće da si to učinio.

_________________
Don't say you want me.
Don't say you need me.
Don't say you love me.
It's understood.


Lol. Slika Slika


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Dobro je da ga nije prihvatio za ucitelja i ne bi uostalom nista pametno naucio.Ne kazem da nije rekao i pametnih stvari,ali je vjerovao u teoriju evolucije,a nije vjerovao u objave M.Valtorte. I ne znam sto je gore od toga, vjerovati u teoriju evolucije ili a priori odbaciti objave M.Valtorte. A vjerovatno nije procitao ni jednu stranicu iz tih objava. Kao kad bih ja rekao npr.da je Marino Restrepo primao sotonske objave,a da nisam procitao ni jednu stranicu iz tih objava. Da li sam ja onda pametan i mudar covjek. Ne. Prvo moram prouciti neko djelo da bih mogao donjeti sud o tom djelu. A sjecam se koliko je Ela Bredi hvalila tog Marina koji joj je navodno jako pomogo u duhovnom razvoju. Tako sam nedavno slucajno u knjiznici naiso na knjigu od tog Restrepa i odlucio ju procitat da mogu sam prosudit. A u knjizi se nalaze objave(poruke) sto ih je taj covjek primao dok je bio u istraznom zatvoru. Nisu cak ni te objave toliko lose po svom sadrzaju,ali se vidi da taj covjek ne posjeduje pravu svetost da bi bio dostojan takvih nadnaravnih darova.

Zato,Fran,ako stvarno zelis biti pametan i mudar,onda odbaci teoriju evolucije,a prihvati objave M. Valtorte. Onda ces biti pravi katolik,a mozda cak postanes i svetac. I vjeruj da se jako malo ljudi spasava. Navest cu glavne razloge za to misljenje koje uporno ponavljam:

1. Pad svih ljudi u Adamu i Evi zbog cega je ljudska narav jako iskvarena i veoma sklona na grijeh
2.Djelovanje Sotone i svih ostalih demona protiv ljudskog spasenja
3. Vecina ljudi uvijek je zivjela izvan prave Crkve i zato im je spasenje veoma otezano( ali ne i apsolutno nemoguce kako je Crkva stoljecima govorila)
4.Vecina svecenika ne obavlja dobro svoju svecenicku sluzbu zbog cega propadaju bezbrojni katolici
5.Samo onaj tko je veoma umjeren u jelu i picu moze ozbiljno radit na svome spasenju,a takvih je jako malo

Ali dok sam citao stare postove od tog Timoteja zapela mi za oko jedna recenica: 'Papa je nepogresiv samo kad govori o najvaznijim stvarima vjere i morala" umjesto da kaze 'o svim stvarima vjere i morala'. Po tome ispada da bi i papa mogao pogrijesiti kad govori o manje vaznim stvarima vjere i morala. U svakom slucaju zanimljivo glediste i nije daleko od prave istine.


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PostPostano: 18 svi 2018 07:22 
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Bonifacije napisao:
Ne trebas se mucit da to prevodis Hrki. To je u biti ono sto sam ti ja rekao. Nista vise ni bolje tu nije receno. Ali dobro je da je netko citirao i ovaj Rimski katekizam koji je puno bolji nego KKC. Evo sto Isus kaze u vezi krstenja u objavama M.Valtorte:

"Krstite vodom u Ime Boga jednoga i trojnoga i u moje Ime i po mojim beskrajnim zaslugama,da se u srcima izbrise Istocni grijeh,da se otpuste grijesi,da se uliju Milost i svete kreposti i da Duh Sveti moze sici da stanuje u posvecenim hramovima sto ce biti tijela ljudi koji ce zivjeti u milosti Gospodinovoj"(Sv. X,str. 244).

Evo,Hrki,u toj jednoj jedinoj recenici,koju je Isus izgovorio u onom predivnom govoru o svih sedam sakramenata,nalazi se sva teologija sakramenta krstenja. Dakle,sakrament krstenja proizvodi velike promjene u ljudskoj naravi i covjeka uzdize u jedno nadnaravno stanje radi Milosti koju Bog ulijeva u covjekovu dusu. A Milost posvecuje covjeka. Ali ako covjek nakon krstenja upadne u smrtni grijeh,on ponovno razara svoju narav i gubi milost Bozju. I to je razlog zasto krsteni ljudi cesto nisu bolji od nekrstenih ljudi,a ne zato sto sakrament krstenja ne bi imao nikakav ucinak na ljudsku narav.

Pitao si u vezi Medjugorja pa cu ti samo ukratko odgovorit. Ja osobno vjerujem da se Gospa u pocetku stvarno ukazivala djeci,a poslije se vjerovatno ubacio Sotona da pokvari Bozje djelo. Nisam 100% siguran jer se nisam puno bavio fenomenom 'Medjugorje' ali postoji velika vjerovatnost da se u jednom trenutku Bog povlaci,a na njegovo mjesto postavlja se Sotona. Glavni razlog za moju sumnju je jedna poruka u kojoj se kaze da najvise dusa ide u cistiliste sto je apsolutno pogresno i krivovjerno. Ali buduci da uvijek postoji mogucnost da je poruka prenesena na pogresan nacin, ne mogu biti potpuno siguran da je tu poruku nadahnuo Sotona. Ali ako je ta poruka stvarno tocno prenesena,onda iza takve poruke moze biti samo Sotona. A kad je u pitanju Garabandal kojeg si spomenuo u jednom postu onda nema nikakve sumnje: tu je Sotona na djelu od samog pocetka. I Marino Restrepo je prevaren od Sotone. Za Vassulu sam vec rekao da je primala lazne objave i to cijelo vrijeme. Ali ako postoje lazne objave,to ne znaci da imao pravo odbacit i one prave kao sto su objave M.Valtorte.


Ta objava u EOB je točna i dobra...skroz u skladu sa KKC...ali milsim da opet ne odgovara na moje pitanje u vezi zašto narav krštenika nije puno jača na napsti grijeha od naravi pogana
Ova gore definicija kaže ( ŠTO SAM ZNA0 I PRIJE) da kada počinimo teški grijeh, da gubimo milost i da smo tada u istog grešnom stanju kao nekršteni
To je meni sve jasno....meni nije jasno to zašto mi iako smo kršteni i dalje tako lako upadamo u grijeh, odnosno zašto nam je narav i dalje tako grešna!!

Što se tiče međugorja neću ti puno pojašnjavati jer sam zadnjih dana u prilog m. sve rekao tako da nema potrebe...a i svatko može otvoriti topic/temu o Međugorju na ovom forumu pa pročitati šta ja govorim godinama o međ. / vidim da si stari forumaš pa vjeroj. i t vrlo dobro znaš o mojim razlozima i argumentima ZA Međugorje ( ako nije problem možeš li mi na pM reći pod kojim si nickom pisao ranije...možda te se sjetim :D )

Što se tiče garabandala , ja u njega vjerujem...možeš li mi reći šta ti ukazuje, "dokazuje" ili šta te navodi da UUG nije autentično

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PostPostano: 18 svi 2018 07:37 
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Fran26 napisao:
Hrvoje Hrki napisao:
Joj ...opet sve na engleskom...pa ima li išta kod nas hrvata , vel.katolika išta na hrvatskom?

Ni meni nije drago kad je nešto na engleskom. Ali, činjenica jest da je većina toga na engleskom. :l30: Dosta stvari se prevelo na naš jezik, a još više se nije prevelo. Tak da si dosta zakinut ako ne znaš engleski jezik. Jednom je moj dobri prijatelj i učitelj napisao Samuelu, citiram;

Ako je Joseph Haydn u svojoj 58. godini mogao *početi* učiti engleski (da bi se mogao dopisivati s jednom svojom prijateljicom engleskinjom), možeš i ti u 30 i nekoj. Tim prije što je engleski danas lingua franca cijeloga svijeta (uključujući i interneta), i tko ga ne razumije de facto je nepismen. Ne želiš valjda ostati nepismen cijeli život? Jobica (zvani Timotej) "Pravovjerje" 27.9.2012.

Samuel je negodovao što se dosta citata stavljalo na engleskom. I meni je to bilo za negodovanje, ali očito i za poticaj. Istina da treba truda, ali za šta ne treba?! Naučiš se i onda imaš "materjala" za tri života. Sve, ali doslovno sve se može pronaći na engleskom. Filozofija ili teologija, sasvim nebitno.

Hrvoje Hrki napisao:
kad stignem , pročitati ću i prevesti koliko mogu u glavi..

Daj si truda ili nekog zamoli da ti prevede. Sa posebnim naglaskom na: "Baptism Does Not Free Us From The Miseries Of Life" i "Why The Practice Of Virtue Is Difficult Even After Baptism". Upravo to si između ostalog postavio u pitanju.


Zamisli koje se pitanje Toma pita u "Sumi teologije". Citiram;


Whether madmen and imbeciles should be baptized?


Objection 1. It seems that madmen and imbeciles should not be baptized. For in order to receive Baptism, the person baptized must have the intention, as stated above (Article 7). But since madmen and imbeciles lack the use of reason, they can have but a disorderly intention. Therefore they should not be baptized.

Objection 2. Further, man excels irrational animals in that he has reason. But madmen and imbeciles lack the use of reason, indeed in some cases we do not expect them ever to have it, as we do in the case of children. It seems, therefore, that just as irrational animals are not baptized, so neither should madmen and imbeciles in those cases be baptized.

Objection 3. Further, the use of reason is suspended in madmen and imbeciles more than it is in one who sleeps. But it is not customary to baptize people while they sleep. Therefore it should not be given to madmen and imbeciles.

On the contrary, Augustine says (Confess. iv) of his friend that "he was baptized when his recovery was despaired of": and yet Baptism was efficacious with him. Therefore Baptism should sometimes be given to those who lack the use of reason.

I answer that, In the matter of madmen and imbeciles a distinction is to be made. For some are so from birth, and have no lucid intervals, and show no signs of the use of reason. And with regard to these it seems that we should come to the same decision as with regard to children who are baptized in the Faith of the Church, as stated above (Article 9, Reply to Objection 2).

But there are others who have fallen from a state of sanity into a state of insanity. And with regard to these we must be guided by their wishes as expressed by them when sane: so that, if then they manifested a desire to receive Baptism, it should be given to them when in a state of madness or imbecility, even though then they refuse. If, on the other hand, while sane they showed no desire to receive Baptism, they must not be baptized.

Again, there are some who, though mad or imbecile from birth, have, nevertheless, lucid intervals, in which they can make right use of reason. Wherefore, if then they express a desire for Baptism, they can be baptized though they be actually in a state of madness. And in this case the sacrament should be bestowed on them if there be fear of danger otherwise it is better to wait until the time when they are sane, so that they may receive the sacrament more devoutly. But if during the interval of lucidity they manifest no desire to receive Baptism, they should not be baptized while in a state of insanity.

Lastly there are others who, though not altogether sane, yet can use their reason so far as to think about their salvation, and understand the power of the sacrament. And these are to be treated the same as those who are sane, and who are baptized if they be willing, but not against their will.

Reply to Objection 1. Imbeciles who never had, and have not now, the use of reason, are baptized, according to the Church's intention, just as according to the Church's ritual, they believe and repent; as we have stated above of children (9, ad Objection). But those who have had the use of reason at some time, or have now, are baptized according to their own intention, which they have now, or had when they were sane.

Reply to Objection 2. Madmen and imbeciles lack the use of reason accidentally, i.e. through some impediment in a bodily organ; but not like irrational animals through want of a rational soul. Consequently the comparison does not hold.

Reply to Objection 3. A person should not be baptized while asleep, except he be threatened with the danger of death. In which case he should be baptized, if previously he has manifested a desire to receive Baptism, as we have stated in reference to imbeciles: thus Augustine relates of his friend that "he was baptized while unconscious," because he was in danger of death (Confess. iv). Thomas Aquinas "Summa Theologica"



p.s. Zašto ti Hrkane nikad nisi htio prihvatiti Jobicu (zvanog Timotej) za učitelja?! Sve druge si prihvatio, bez obzira koliko su tipovi bili glupi. Jobicu nikad nisi prihvatio za učitelja. A uvijek je bio pametniji od svih nas. Nikad nisam vidio pametnijeg forumaša od njega. Stvarno mi ni jasno zašto te Jobica nikad nije zanimao. :l30: Trebao si to učiniti. Trebao si ga prihvatiti za "učitelja". Kamo li sreće da si to učinio.


Hvala ti na ovim citatima od sv.tome i nekim sugestijama
Što se tiče Jovbice kao učitelja?
Ja nemam nikoga od LJUDI na ovom svijetu kao učitelja u vezi teologije/VJERE!.... nisam navezan na nijednu osobu, niti ovisan o njegovom specijalnom mišljenju , nauku , stavu isl!
I nikoga ja nisam prihvatio...da li je on pametniji od drugih ne znam, to nezna nitko osim Boga ...osim toga šta je pamet???( imati sva teška pitanja u teologiji sustavno snimljena na folderima/mapama , znati dobro gdje se šta nalazi i sukladno tomu brzo to stavljati na forum kada se pojavi neko pitanje???... to nije pamet , to je dobra sistematizacija....on ne govori svojom glavom , nego citira druge, itd, itd....tako da li je on najpametniji, i u čemu je najpametniji je dosta teško reći ...i to je jako jako relativno!

Meni je jedini , ono pravi učitelj Isus, i njegova Majka , BDMarija- Gospa...nitko sa foruma TT, pa ni drugih foruma
Zato ja toliko uvažavam Gospina ukazanja u međugorju, jer sam osjetio da kroz vidioce stvarno progovara Gospa , odnosno Isus-Bog!
Da pojasnim,,ne radi se tu samo o osjećaju ili božjoj milosti da ja to prihvatim...jer nisam ja prihvatio UUM ono napamet bez veze...pročitao sam ja dosta knjiga o tome, dosta teologa isl

Osim toga, nakon krvave francuske antikatoličke revolucije , Gospa se stalno ukazuje širom svijeta ( od 1830. Paris / sveta, čudotvorna medaljica pa sve do međugorja!) ...preko Gospe Bog daje savjete sve grešnijem čovječanstvu....to što protestanti i neki ( ili mnogi? neznam) katolici ne mogu prihvatiti da BDMarija zbilja ima toliku ulogu u spasenju čovječanstva i da sukladno tomu djeluje i kroz ukazanja u Međugorju to je njihov problem
Protestanti BDMariju svode na puku Kristorodilju i za njih ona nije ništa posebno, čak mislim da za njih nije ni blažena( ili barem to nikada ne spominju,a to ti dođe na isto!)...jer da je , onda bi barem prihvatili molitvu Zdravo Marijo i Gospin Ružarij!
Na žalost i mnogim katolicima Gospa sve više gubi na značaju
Što se tiče učitelja izvan foruma naravno da ih imam...čitam stalno vjerske knjige kao što znaš i imam dosta "učitelja"

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PostPostano: 18 svi 2018 09:11 
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U jednom prethodnom postu rekao sam da su dva glavna uvjeta koja se moraju ispuniti da bi objava bila od Boga:
1. Objava mora biti u potpunom skladu s katolickom vjerom
2. Osoba koja prima objavu mora biti uistnu sveta

Kad se Gospa prvi put ukazala u Medjugorju,djeca su jos bila vjerovatno nevina,ponizna i pobozna a takvo njihovo pocetno duhovno stanje dopustalo bi mogucnost da se Gospa stvarno ukaze. A u Garabandalu Gospa se prvi put ukazala djeci bas dok su krali jabuke. A kad je jedna vidjelica usla u samostan,neki joj je glas govorio da napusti samostan,a to sigurno nije bio glas Bozji. Previse je danas laznih ukazanja i objava pa moramo biti i vise nego oprezni. Jako su problematicne i poruke sto ih je primao don Gobi.


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PostPostano: 18 svi 2018 13:05 
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Bonifacije napisao:
U jednom prethodnom postu rekao sam da su dva glavna uvjeta koja se moraju ispuniti da bi objava bila od Boga:
1. Objava mora biti u potpunom skladu s katolickom vjerom
2. Osoba koja prima objavu mora biti uistnu sveta

Kad se Gospa prvi put ukazala u Medjugorju,djeca su jos bila vjerovatno nevina,ponizna i pobozna a takvo njihovo pocetno duhovno stanje dopustalo bi mogucnost da se Gospa stvarno ukaze. A u Garabandalu Gospa se prvi put ukazala djeci bas dok su krali jabuke. A kad je jedna vidjelica usla u samostan,neki joj je glas govorio da napusti samostan,a to sigurno nije bio glas Bozji. Previse je danas laznih ukazanja i objava pa moramo biti i vise nego oprezni. Jako su problematicne i poruke sto ih je primao don Gobi.


Ovo što si pod 2. naveo naprosto nije istina
Ne mora osoba biti sveta...dapače, Bog se najčešće koristi običnim osobama, koje se ništa posebno ne ističu, pa ni svetošću
U više priznatih ukazanja to je dokazano da su vidioci djeca, tabula rase , ništa posebno , a najmanje sveci
Današnji mnogi proglašeni sveci su postali sveci ad posteriori...poslije mističnih fenomena, ukazanja isl...nisu oni bili nužno sveci nego što im se bog/gospa ukazala

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PostPostano: 19 svi 2018 01:44 
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Ipak smatram,Hrki,da ovaj drugi kriterij nuzno mora biti zadovoljen da bi objava mogla biti od Boga. Ali taj kriterij ne iskljucuje nevinu djecu koja su Isusu toliko draga. Sam je Isus rekao:" Ako se ne obratite i ne postanete kao djeca,necete uci u kraljevstvo nebesko". U La Saletteu,Lourdesu,Fatimi...dogodila su se prava ukazanja,a vidioci su bili bas nevina djeca,tj.djeca koju Sotona jos nije iskvario( jer postoje i pokvarena djeca). Ali ako Bog nekoj odrasloj osobi zeli povjerit pravo prorocko poslanje za dobro cijele Crkve ili barem za dobro velikog broja dusa,onda takva osoba nuzno mora biti sveta i tu nema nikakvog izuzetka. I vjeruj mi da ne bih vjerovao ni u objave M.Valtorte,da ta zena nije bila prava svetica.
Svi proroci Starog zavjeta bili su sveti i zato je nuzno da i proroci Novog zavjeta budu sveti.To ne znaci da Bog ne moze ponekad progovorit i nekoj osobi koja nije sveta da ju potakne na pravu svetost( kao sto je progovorio Savlu na putu za Damask),ali preko takvih osoba nikad nece davati opsirne objave na korist cijele Crkve. U tome je razlika. Jedna je stvar ako Bog izrekne samo nekoliko rijeci jednoj osobi za njezino vlastito duhovno dobro,a druga je stvar ako objava sadrzi na stotine i tisuce stranica i usmjerena je na dobro milijuna dusa. Za takvo pravo prorocko poslanje apsolutno je nuzna prava svetost i da M.Valtorta nije bila prava svetica nikad joj Bog ne bi dao tako brojne i velike objave za dobro cijele Crkve. I upravo radi tog drugog kriterija odbacio sam vecinu objava koje su razni katolici primali u zadnjih 50 godina. Po tome se moze vidjeti da nisam lakovjeran kad su u pitanju objave i ako vjerujem u objave M.Valtorte,onda sigurno imam za to jako dobre razloge.


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